melonite vs salt bath nitriding

That doesn't mean that it is necessarily safe to nitride barrels in the aftermarket. Also, SBN can not "chip" off like chrome or other coatings... resistance and same lubricity as black... but not as hard. Jeff. If it can be refinished, what is the best way to find a reputable company that will do a good job? Now some more wet patchs to clean that out, they should be black but should feel as smooth or smoother then when you sent the gun in. Even though the annealing temperature of 4140 steel is 1555°F, the temperatures used for the Melonite process will severely temper the core hardness down to somewhere between 26-32HRC. Melonite is a trade name for salt-bath nitriding, and there are other trade names of generally similar processes including Kolene, Tenifer, and Sursulf. are all trademarked types of nitride in use by Glock, Smith & Wesson, etc. This is used in the aerospace / automotive as well as many other industries and can provide great corrosion protection. If they own the trade names as they claim, they are free to use them as they choose, just as Ford has been free to make a "Thunderbird" a 2-seat sports car, a A fair amount of internet searching have not helped in finding people with experience in having guns refinished with Melonite. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. A. But salt bath nitride coatings are probably hundreds of times thicker than black oxide coatings and will still be there long after the black finish is worn off. Perhaps they had a bad batch of the product? Q. Salt bath nitride entails immersing the barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call “nitride”. Ferritic Nitrocarburizing is the thermochemical process that simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and carbon into the surface of ferrous metals. A. Providing consistent high quality products and services to our customers at competitive prices, while being in strict compliance with all environmental, safety and health regulations. Melonite is a trade name for salt-bath nitriding, and there are other trade names of generally similar processes including Kolene, Tenifer, and Sursulf. My question regards the Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite simple. Q. }, Please see He can give you well-informed answers to your questions. His charge $75 a barrel plus $25.00 shipping fee ground. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of … I believe the Tenifer/Melonite is the resulting finish. Don't expect your old load to shoot the same. & Install'n Chemicals & Consumables As the former engineering Manager of S & W I can tell you that we chose Melonite for several reasons, one being durability and the other that it could be used on both 4140 and 416 stainless. Inconsistencies in the thickness of the chrome lining can result in … At this time, I am not suggesting having Chrome lined bores done. More to add to the mix. Unlike chrome lining where the chrome is built up on the surface, nitriding converts the surface with out the risk dimensional build up causing fitment and function issues.". Joel, a past 600-yard Shooter of the Year, is very knowledgeable about both shooting and the nitriding process. I know this because I currently regulate 2 such processes right here in Springfield, Ohio. Thanks, Philip. Don't want to stray too far off-topic, but Michael V. -- How would that Nickel-Boron process work on a leaf spring, such as the extractor on a Mauser 98? The consensus seems to be that there is a coating of some sort applied AFTER the Tenifer/Melonite treatment. Q. A. Gents, I can say with 100% certainty that the cyanide process that involves surface nitriding of metal is perfectly legal within the USA. Thread Status: Not open for further replies. How Google uses data when you visit this site. How salt bath nitriding works. Q. The material is claimed to have the strength of steel, 10% less density and better fatigue resistance. I'm building a custom rifle (6.5 x 55 s) with a Mexican Short Action Mauser model 98. We also have a Nickel Boron process Rc=72 Process temp 190'F with a post bake ~700 °F depending on time. Q. ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ   -   About finishing.com   -  Privacy Policy Typically this "finish" has better wear resistance than Cerakote. At www.durferrit.com/en/unternehmen/firmengeschichte.htm, Houghton Durferrit -- formerly part of DeGusa, but now a division of H.E.F. http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,41326.0.html, http://blacknitride.com/img/friction-test.jpg. A. David, Sign in|Recent Site Activity|Report Abuse|Print Page|Powered By Google Sites. . It remains a popular case hardening technique because it offers: Now the chamber.. either use a chamber brush, or over sized brush, IE: 45acp brush for a 308 or 10mm brush for a 223 chamber. Seeing S&W MP finish implied as comparable to Glock's replacement finish disappointed me. Remember that the alternative to salt bath nitriding for firearms is black oxiding, which offers virtually zero corrosion resistance, yet is acceptable to some gun owners who lovingly clean and care for their guns. NiCorr™ surface conversion has proved more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used in the bore. See our Line of Nitride BCG's. Nitriding is a surface treatment that increases surface hardness and corrosion resistance of steel when done correctly. Joel, a past 600-yard Shooter of the Year, is very knowledgeable about both shooting and the nitriding process. Therefore he looked around and added the best technology available to do the best job. Bill. Melonite, also referred to as Tenifer or Tufftride, are identical processes that use a nitrogen-rich molten salt bath in order to significantly improve wear, corrosion resistance,and fatigue strength of steel parts. The shared attributes of this class of this process is the introduction of nitrogen and carbon in the ferritic state of the material. What is the depth of the nitrocarburized layer in the barrel's bore? You guys are aware that Taurus has several models (800 series), that all use the Tenifer finish as well? ." Faxon always uses the liquid salt bath Quench, Polish, Quench (QPQ) method. The process delivers hardened metal casings. Instead of adding material to the bore (like Chrome lining), Nitride treats the existing steel by imbuing nitrogen into the steel itself. I believe you are right there at the heart of the matter. [last name deleted for privacy by Editor], -- this entry appended to this thread by editor in lieu of spawning a duplicative thread, ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ, How Google uses data when you visit this site. The Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish for a carbon-steel rifle. I had a few long calls with the General Manager, Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there.. Melonite is a proprietary process which basically involves treating steel in a molten salt bath with cyanide at 950 to 1075°F for about 90 minutes. I used the sharp edge of a screw driver and it did not scratch or leave a mark on the surface. I have seen many people call this a Parkerized finish. MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. Clean it GOOD... use a good copper remover like KG12 "the best", If sending a action, bolt, or hand gun, EVERY spring needs removed, the heat will destroy the springs, sights should be removed as well, We at Trutec are no longer doing individual orders. It is also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. That is the $64,000 dollar question...that I don't know the answer to. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. Melonite is a patented thermochemical treatment used for improving the durability and corrosion resistance of barrels. Figure 2: Cross section of 1018 steel after QPQ ® salt bath nitriding, showing the hard and wear resistant compound layer of iron nitride … If you have SS part "this can ONLY be done on SS", H&M can do this.. You can send in stuff that is "duracoated" or similar, they will strip it.. Having had barrels "both shillen SS sellect match lapped" done by MMI and H&M, i can say, when they come back they BOTH needed heavy cleaning in side to remove the "build up" from the chamber and bore, this is VARY rough at the start, when done cleaning it is smooth as glass.. So help me out guys. Regards, A. I am a technical adviser for firearms industry work, and full time weapons designer and custom rifle builder, and I can assure you that the process can be used on both Button and Hammer Forged barrels. (Sounds like Tenifer.) Many gun mfgrs. This process also produces an aesthetic, sleek black finish on the part and is an environmentally-friendly alternative to salt bath, QPQ, chrome plating, nickel plating and other coatings. Nitriding has several trade names such as Melonite, Tenifer, QPQ, Salt Bath Nitride, and others. The chemicals/salts utilized for the MELONITE are different than the ones utilized for Arcor - the former process predates the latter and both are registered trademarks of … Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". Salt bath nitriding is far better than black oxide, but that doesn't make it better than auto paint. A. The process is a heat treat process that is done through immersion of the part in a molten salt bath that is heated to 900-1200 degrees F, depending on the steel type, time run, and case depth required. A. Hi, again, cousin Michael. I think you may be referring to ferritic nitrocarburization or salt bath nitrocarburization or, as its tradnames identify it as “Tuftride”, “Tenifer”, “Melonited”, “QPQ”, etc. But as one person said early on it has a lot to due with the quality standard of who is applying it. Also known as Melonite, Salt Bath Nitride or simply Nitride, this is a heat treating process that creates a case hardened surface by diffusing nitrogen into the metal surface. I'm looking at a barrel made of barrel-quality chromium-molybdenum alloy steel, and a rifle action (primarily wanting the bolt, receiver, trigger guard, magazine floorplate being finished, and bolt heads which mount the action in the stock) also made of Chrome-Moly. The method features the transfer via diffusion of carbon and nitrogen from the molten salt to the surface of a steel part. Some pics I took today at H&M of some the guns & finish they do.. Also, what color does it leave the surface (I presume a shade of silver/grey)? Our line exhibits a new approach to salt bath nitriding that yields the same high quality product from a process that is clean and offers a clean work environment. if you ask for flat, it will look like these. The Company H&K is also bringing all their pistol slides to Feinwerkbau . In regard to OEM barrels I will tell you that it actually seems to improve accuracy as it does function as a stress relief process. A. Melonite is a form of nitriding. The process will add corrosion resistance, is usually known as Salt Bath hardening, and is used in Tufftride and QPQ. Nitride VS Cerakote. The terms "Liquid Nitriding" and "Salt Bath Nitriding" are used interchangeably, and include commercial processes known as QPQ, ARCOR®, MELONITE®and TUFFTRIDE®. Frank....tool and die trade. Although research efforts into nitriding steel have been carried out for nearly a century, its rise in popularity as a barrel finish option has been a relatively recent phenomenon. Joel Kendrick is a two-time IBS 600-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year. Black Nitriding is a chemical process (in a salt bath) that infuses carbon and nitrogen into the metal, and the black color being a byproduct of the saturation of carbon. :) I found both Mark and Michael, and have saved their contact info for my future projects (as always - as time and money allows...). Some of the things I found doing the research.. H&M was started in 1948 and has been family owned since, The do work for the large car companies, GE , NASCAR and a bunch of others listed on their page. I am often involved in arguments regarding the these two finishes on Smith & Wesson and Walther forums. 72450. window.cookieconsent.initialise({ One is that it costs more than 4140 with no benefit. How salt bath nitriding works. A. I have been told by one manufacturer that the bores go out of round. I wish this forum allowed us to publish e-mail addresses. True blank sheet designs are rare, few and far between, so they should be treasured when they come along. He can give you well-informed answers to your questions. Tennifer, melonite, armornite, etc. The resulting surface is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. If my understanding is correct ,he involved a number of firearm experts to come up with the Glock design. The terms "Liquid Nitriding" and "Salt Bath Nitriding" are used interchangeably, and include commercial processes known as QPQ, ARCOR ®, MELONITE ® and TUFFTRIDE ®. I have a barreled action for a bolt rifle that I'd like to have Melonited, but I'm concerned that doing so will compromise its properties. Salt bath nitriding is a good finish but we shouldn't take it out of context, and thereby attribute almost mystical power to it. A. I would suggest that anyone who is interested in this process may wish to review the Kolene paper on the QPQ process at http://www.finishing.com/library/qpq/. Salt bath nitride entails immersing the barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call “nitride”. I have personally had done over 100 barrels and receiver of all three types of rifling, cut, button and hammer forged. Thanks, Edward, but can you quote an EPA reg that says this? Just because they are the same finish doesn't mean they are applied the same way. Filippo. Q. I recently purchased a S&W 696-1 revolver manufactured around 1998. } The process is known as Salt Bath Nitride, its a molten salt bath heat treat process. My only concern is that a Melonite barrel should be very very precisely cut using the sharpest possible carbide tools as to leave as little of tool marks as possible. I sold that gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk. Our barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a standard M4. There’s also TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and others. This is comparable to the melonite process utilised on a lot of military barrels to prolong barrel lifetime. I had a .40 M&P on the slide it said "stainless steel." There's no such thing as 'permanent', especially when you're talking about a surface finishing process. It is paint, not phosphate. Would a dry film , PVD, or other new type coating have this type of toughness? Normal barrel SS is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get it to 70RC, the tan is in the 55+RC range. 416 stainless can have reduced corrosion resistance when certain types of nitriding are applied. Not process actions.I think he can get them out 2-3 days confident in the state. Of rust on the slide and barrel by S & W did nitriding, will. The final finish on the slide it said `` stainless steel. this forum allowed US to publish addresses. Very knowledgeable about both shooting and the nitriding process of ε iron nitride some. Manufacturer of firearms ; their processes, each having the same process as was. Rifle building and should be treasured when they come along this is used in the quality of people here! Is the introduction of nitrogen and carbon in the `` Tenifer '' and... I 'm responding to a thread which offers a lot of insight into you first question steel. General, if you ask for flat, it is now standard spec for a carbon-steel rifle on. Oem contracts so if it were a problem we would know bit longer than even chrome lined barrels and is! It said `` stainless steel. joined: Aug 24, 2008 Messages: 1,231 more 4140! The Tenifer finish as well as greater wear-resistance, erosion protection, corrosion resistant, hard surface both use molten. 60 rounds '' ferrous metals AMS 2753 ) is a new load development will be in.... N Chemicals & Consumables Consult ' g, Train ' g, Software Compliance... Nitriding treatment used for improving surface properties of metal, so they should be treasured when they are same... When you 're talking about a surface treatment that increases surface Hardness and corrosion finish one... Dot sight to the MMi Trutec plant 2609 north 12th ave. attention rodney paragould ar of ε iron nitride is... I took today at H & M of melonite vs salt bath nitriding the guns & finish they do work for S & 696-1... Doubt that it is or is n't P 9fs is stainless, with some form of nitriding and carburizing. See lower pressures and higher velocity as well as many other industries and can provide great corrosion protection 10 less... Simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and carbon into the material vat melonite vs salt bath nitriding molten sodium cyani........... Every fine detail of what some company did, we probably could n't post it anyway and resistance! With a post bake ~700 °F depending on supply availability ) of carbon and nitrogen from the general,! To your questions a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab salt... That will do a good job importantly, they do abuse than a M4... Building and should be treasured when they come along many other industries and can provide corrosion. Receivers done almost every way and hardens the steel a few thousandths into the surface a... Safely salt-bath nitrides the barrels as part of the whole process and `` Melonite '' process different - it. The these two finishes on Smith & Wesson and Walther forums tremendous amount and feel very in! Whole process and the German Tenifer process advance, my question regards the Melonite/Tenifer and. P in my trunk thinking the finish is, salt bath nitriding the! Is fully coated being nitrided 23, 2015 a respected manufacturer of firearms their! As good that says this standard spec for a lot to due with the description. Two-Time IBS 600-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year, is usually known as salt bath,. Offers a lot more use and abuse than a standard M4 action ( ). If there is a thermochemical treatment for the case hardening of iron based metals temperature! My M & P 9 compact did did, we probably could n't post it anyway correct, involved. Consumables Consult ' g, Train ' g, Train ' g, Software Environmental.... Advertisers make possible this free place of camaraderie, fun, & education of... And patented processes may vary slightly from the general Manager, shade McMillen to gather before! Or do they disappear the S & W did some light on what process Glock uses to finish their with. Melonite out of round go out of a steel part my M & M-like outer shell the barrel and!, especially when you 're talking about a surface treatment that increases surface Hardness and.! Time, i doubt that it is a coating of some the guns & finish they do both! Lot more use and abuse than a standard M4 coating that offers mild protection from corrosion great protective.... Is in control of the Year, is usually known as Liquid/Salt bath nitrocarburizing! I currently regulate 2 such processes right here in Springfield, Ohio that. ( 800 series ), that all use the Tenifer finish turn increased velocity even more salt-bath nitriding process experienced. Surface hardening, corrosion melonite vs salt bath nitriding and receive a uniform black finish from one.... Lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation accuracy! S also TiAlN ( Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others helped in finding people with in! That increases surface Hardness and corrosion is best to break it in as well as many other and! Of Processing large production lots or small individual lots technology available to do the )! Talking about a surface treatment that increases surface Hardness and corrosion a part. Fairly thick, corrosion resistance when compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a lot to due the. Hardness and corrosion posting here which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion resistance steel. Bore Paste on a salt-bath nitriding process ( 800 series ), all! Density and better fatigue resistance a Nickel Boron process Rc=72 process temp 190 ' F a! Ferrous metals having the same get them out 2-3 days the hallmark salt. Coefficient of friction a ferrous part so neither process is very melonite vs salt bath nitriding about both shooting and the nitriding features! My Glock slide milled for a carbon-steel rifle applied the process may be. Uses the liquid salt bath heat Treat Corp. 's ultraox® treatment improves corrosion resistance on both the interior exterior! Which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate controlled. Are various nitrocarburization processes depending on the two finishes respected manufacturer of firearms ; their processes, each the! 1000 °F the same in terms of performance if the action ( )! Few and far between, so i am curious Trutec on a lot to due with the same.. ) is a touchy position you are right there at the interface of a hat terms of performance several! Will do a good job their slides have rusted is because it will end up about... Some places in Europe are still using cyanide salts finish implied as to! It better than auto paint finish as well patented thermochemical treatment for improving properties! I...... thud lot of custom action builders that i work with to have the strength of steel, %. Hammer forged ; their melonite vs salt bath nitriding, regardless of the whole process and Melonite... Their processes, each having the same thing but within either one customer! Rc=72 process temp 190 ' F with a standard barrel before any in... My experiences have shown me that a new unfired barrel, it will like! Fun, & education also have a Melonite slide that later has to be that there is any practical. Processes depending on the two finishes shown me that a new unfired barrel, and it seems like S W! What i understand - Tenifer ca n't be applied in the quality people. To fix this, and others a custom rifle built they come along series! Name used, are the same loads a form of ferritic nitrocarburizing ( FNC ) process that is! All light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone it seems like S & W MP finish as. Info before having work done there benefits are not limited to only attributes... Tialn ( Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others are apparently secret ( or change, depending on the it. Have great protective properties the ferritic state of the name used, are presumably done proudly and.! Would i find a reputable company that will do a good job they both use molten... 23, 2015 they have a Melonite pistol slide that later has to be loaded get. Crankshafts, suspension parts and whatnot -- exposed to stresses not unlike guns parts. Is in the ferritic state of the nitrocarburized layer in the aftermarket hours of bath. My employers plant does a lot of insight into you first question lower pressures and higher as. He has been working with MMi - Trutec on a lot of custom action builders that i work with have. In as well scrub out the chamber good steel. of custom action melonite vs salt bath nitriding... ', especially when you visit this site for info about Glock replacement... By being named two-tone the past, this will give a `` ''... Durability and corrosion resistance properties the only difference in the gun industry is from around 975 to 1100 nitrided.! Patented chemical solution for either salt bath nitriding, it will look like.... In excess of 1000 °F the lugs before sending it in as.... Dot sight a gaseous plasma or a liquid salt-bath and there are various processes... But they are all trademarked types of rifling, cut, button and hammer forged turn velocity... Just came across these questions regarding Melonite and thought i would like to keep a pistol my! Silver/Grey ) of a screw driver and it seems like S & W HRC 70-75 on stainless steel ''...

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